Women in Tech - Nature or Nurture?

Ivona Voroneckaja (00:00)
I’ve had so many female lecturers that I’d look at them and I’d be like, I want to be you when I grow up, do know that feeling that like some women give you?

Hi everyone, Hypercube team with you here today. My name is Ivona, I’m a senior data scientist here at Hypercube and I’m here with India.

India Thomson (00:24)
My name’s India and I’m a data engineer here at Hypercube

Ivona Voroneckaja (00:27)
Yep.

And today we just wanted to start a conversation about nature versus nurture when it comes to women in tech and science. And obviously India and I are both women in science and we never took the time to sit down and have a conversation about how we got there. So hopefully we can do that all together in this cool setting.

India Thomson (00:51)
Well, talking of nice settings, I guess let’s start from the beginning. What kind of kid were you at school?

Ivona Voroneckaja (00:56)
So I was just one of them kids at school who like sits at the very front and if any of my friends wanted to sit with me, I’d have to be like, well, if you’re going to distract me or if you’re going to be chatting with me, like I’m not interested. Like despite of that, I think I was kind of well liked and a lot of people may disagree with me on this, but I was just this typical nerd, like really into maths. And I was like always coming up with my own ways to solve like equations and things. So it’s a bit more efficient. So I would like…

write things down in columns instead of like solve things row by row. there’s absolutely no reason for it. And I was like coming up with my own den of signs. So we obviously have like additions of traction, multiplications. I’d come up like with my own thing and then be like, this is what this does. And yeah, so it was, it was quite special from, from that kind of point of view. Well, I was wondering as you went kind of through school and you know, every life, did you have anybody you looked up to?

And that was a female in science or tech.

India Thomson (01:58)
Yeah. So I think that’s actually a really interesting one and probably one that sort of like shaped my career and shaped, has shaped how I’ve come to this point in my life is the fact that my mom was actually one of the first female programmers in South Africa. ⁓ So she was working on an IBM 34 machine, which was migrating from a punch card system, which is really interesting. And then from that, she went on, I think she said to use RPG2 and COBOL.

Ivona Voroneckaja (02:12)
Wow.

India Thomson (02:28)
Which is crazy because it’s languages that I’ve probably not even heard of nowadays. You hear the standard like Python, R, Java, C++, but you don’t really hear of like languages that were used back then. But to know that sort of, guess that she was doing it. And this was maybe, sorry mom, like 40 years ago or something. And that she sort of was one of like the pioneering people in her field in South Africa. And at that time.

No, they didn’t have the concept of like data scientists and data engineer and all of these concepts that we have nowadays. It was sort of just like software or like developer or programmer. And it was just sort of like a generalized term. think her title is like a programmer. You’re okay. But I think from having her and from seeing that she sort of always really encouraged us to follow the route of computers and to like get into coding. She always like really encouraged that us take it as an extracurricular subject, even though

at school, I often found that I was the only female in the classroom that was doing any of these sort of computer courses. ⁓ if it hadn’t been for my mom and her sort of persistence on the fact that she thinks IT is a fantastic career, I don’t know if I’d still be, I don’t know if I’d still have taken it and be here today. So yeah, I think it’s a really interesting one. Did your family or school encourage you to take STEM subjects?

Ivona Voroneckaja (03:46)
So unlike yourself, I didn’t have a family member that would be in that career path. The teacher we had for the first four years, she’s kind of spotted my interest in maths and instead of just kind of letting it be and ignoring it, and she created more work for herself actually. So she told my parents sort of that, you know, I’m really interested in it. find it really, like I pick things up quite quickly and she’s put almost like

a separate curriculum for myself through that time. I made a list of like books and these like we exercise books that you’d get, you know, as a kid. And then my parents like bought all of them and I was doing my own thing in parallel, which in hindsight, like that’s a hassle, you know, she had to come up with additional tests, she had to do all of that. But that definitely just instilled that feeling of, wow, like this is like my thing that I’m good at rather than

just letting it be and accepting it for granted. think that’s kind of made it like part of my personality almost, you know, that’s a well, no, she’s good at math kind of thing. So yeah, definitely like reflecting back, this is something that’s had an effect on me and this is super early. And then later on being at the university, so I studied ⁓ statistics at Glasgow uni.

And I’ve had so many female lecturers that I’d look at them and I’d be like, Oh, I want to be you. I, when I grow up, you know, feeling that like some women give you and you’re like, you just absolutely brilliant. You’re rocking like the highest heels I’ve ever seen in my life. Um, and yeah, and you just are so academic and like, um, yeah, so sciencey. that made me feel like I kind of belong despite the fact that they weren’t.

maybe as many females in those math lectures and classes that really made me feel like, ⁓ yeah, you’re like on the right path. You can totally do this. So yeah, so I went on a tangent talking about uni and that makes me think like, did you know what you wanted to do straight out of school where you’re like, yes, it’s science and that’s what I want to go for because of your mom and everything. Or like, what was your journey like?

India Thomson (06:05)
Yeah, I mean, when I started thinking about it, so I think it was like at the tail end of high school, I had no idea what I wanted to study. Initially I was like, maybe veterinary science, maybe I wanted to be a doctor because I animals, love helping people and that side of things. really found the sort of blood in the gory stuff a bit too, like gore and law. So it was like, that doesn’t really work. So I actually, my mom took me to see an educational psychologist who basically did a whole bunch of psychometric testing and we’re like, ⁓

you’re actually really good at math. And I was like, yeah, thanks. I figured. And she said to me, I think you should study actuarial science. And so I took that sort of advice and I was like, okay, fantastic. I’m going to go study actuarial science. Ended up going to university, ended up doing three years of actuarial science. Absolutely hated it. I think the whole concept of like calculating someone’s mortality, calculating someone’s like life, like when they’re going to die and all of that stuff was just a quite morbid sort of

thing to be going into and sort of let me think about like, am I doing this for the rest of my life? It was like, please no. ⁓ But it was through doing actuarial science and through doing a number of subjects that I started doing computer science sort of as well, and then also statistics. I sort of found that the subjects that I enjoyed the most were actually statistics and computer science. And at that point sort of pivoted off to my undergrad and was like, right, what can I do that involves these two subjects? Yeah, decided actually.

data science might be an option and then went on to do a master’s in data science, which is sort of how I ended up where I am now. But yeah, definitely not a smooth path. Unfortunately, I had to go through having to try out actuarial science, which just wasn’t for me.

Ivona Voroneckaja (07:48)
you wouldn’t be where you are now if you hadn’t gone through that journey. like that all worked out. That helped you on your path of realization while it is that you wanted to do that. Really cool.

India Thomson (07:59)
Exactly. And yourself, did you know going to university you wanted to do math and stuff?

Ivona Voroneckaja (08:04)
You know, like I was listening to you and you were like, I went to see educational psychologist, I did this, I did that. I did none of that. Like I just kind of was like, okay, well, I’m good at maths. Our exposure to statistics at school was like really, really limited. I did not understand what it actually meant. ⁓

you know, we say statistics people things, like you drop pie charts for a living kind of thing, right? So this is where you’re at, at that age of 17, probably this is your understanding. And you’re thinking, right, I’m good at math, but also have those like softer skills that are important to me, right? So didn’t want to go and study pure maths at all. So what does one do if they don’t really know, you know, and they follow finance, economics, ⁓ that’s all like in one bucket for me, you know?

in my brain at that time. So I’ve applied to a bunch of courses which either had like finance or economics in it basically. And I ended up getting into finance and statistics course. that and statistics, even though it was an equal part of the course, that almost like wasn’t the reason that I went to study it. And I’m so glad that that’s what happened because

ended up dropping finance pretty quickly, I think in year three. It was just like a light bulb in the year, honestly, because at that time, let’s just go back to like 17, 18 year old myself. You learn those mathematical concepts, et cetera. So say you’re thinking about like vectors. And I think there was such a gap between, this is a vector, you define its length, directionality, whatever, to this is how it’s applied and this is how it’s actually useful.

The limited exposure I had to those applications didn’t really get me excited. And I’m very much aware that my world was quite small when it was to what I knew. So I was thinking, I’m just going to do equations for four years at uni. This is what I was thinking. ⁓ And then in real life, you never have a vector pointing out of the table. So this is how limited my thinking was at the minute. And then suddenly comes in statistics and it’s like,

Wow, like, okay, so we are trying to model something that tells us like if a baby’s head circumference is out of the norm in pregnant women. And I see how this is important because if it is out of the norm, you know, it helps us diagnose things early, et cetera, et cetera. And these were like applications that just resonated with myself quite quickly. And then I understood, okay, so if I have that toolbox and I know how to do all of this stuff, I can kind of apply it.

to anything. So this was this massive revelation to me, I suppose. Yeah. And at that point, was like ⁓ love at first sight, but yeah, was a love at first sight once I eventually got there. ⁓ If that makes sense.

India Thomson (11:13)
How did your sort of professional career start? How did that journey begin?

Ivona Voroneckaja (11:18)
So I did a PhD in machine learning essentially and out of there I kind of went head in to consulting and it started quite organic. I just really felt like I needed to burst out of my academic bubble at the time. So I just reached out to everybody I possibly knew and I was like, can I do anything for you? Is there something that I could do for you for free? And usually people say yes when you just…

offer your services for free. And that opened up that door into consulting where some of these relationships have kind of stayed on. And then fast forward, I was obviously wanting to work in an environment where I’m surrounded by loads of clever people that know like different areas of tech where we can kind of collaborate together and deliver really cool solutions. This is how Hypercube

came into play for me. And I just thought like, wow, it sounds really awesome. Like really difficult problems, really, really smart people. And sounds like the place I want to be. What about you? Like, how did you actually find Hypercube?

India Thomson (12:31)
This is actually really funny story because in my old workplace, a very good friend of mine, she actually went to university with you. And I remember her speaking about you and speaking about like the stuff that you’d gone on to do and like your accomplishments and accolades and everything like this. And when she saw sort of, think maybe you shared a post on LinkedIn or something where they were, where Hypercube was hiring, it immediately sort of, she sent it to me immediately. And I was like, what, what is this? And because she’d said so much about you and because I’d heard so much about you, was like,

I need to work with my own ads. And I was like, so sweet. So I would say like, predominantly my reason for being at Hypercube is because of you. Like I don’t think I would have come to the business if I hadn’t seen someone who’d done so much in the space already being there and to be able to like learn from. So for me, that was sort of the main reason and the main driving force was because even when like going online and stuff like that, saw like your little photo and your little fire and everything like that.

Ivona Voroneckaja (13:30)
⁓ that’s so sweet, they’re making me mosh.

India Thomson (13:34)
But yeah, so for me, was very much about like, okay, who’s there as a female that I know, and I know obviously in the industry it can be quite difficult and the industry is still quite male dominated. And so for me, it was really important to be able to find like female role models that could like not even be an ally, but just be like a friend, even if it’s just like day-to-day things that didn’t really have anything to do with work, but just sort of understood where I was coming from.

Ivona Voroneckaja (13:59)
So you reckon it’s quite important, like when you’re looking for a job, you would be interested in that ratio of male to female in the team, right?

India Thomson (14:08)
Even with hypercute, I know that at director level, us bits are sort of 50-50. Which is actually fantastic when you think about it, because we’re basically going from the top down in terms of, you know, practice what you preach. And whilst there’s still improvement to be made, as there is with any company, I think we’ve come a really long way in terms of nurturing that.

Ivona Voroneckaja (14:12)
Yeah, that’s true

And even thinking about more practical things, right? As females, we tend to think about things like what’s the maternity policy? And not to say that men don’t think about that, of course, but like this is something that’s at the back of your mind. Like should I decide to start a family? Can I excel in my work and continue to grow professionally while doing that? So obviously having all of those things in place is also really important.

India Thomson (14:56)
But knowing that that’s sort of there and that that’s a possibility is obviously very important. And seeing how many of like our colleagues have children and, you know, have adapted their schedules so that they are able to be there for their children, I think is really nice to see. And also really important that you can have a parent that works full time and is really good at their job, but is also very present in their child’s life.

Ivona Voroneckaja (15:18)
Yeah, no, definitely. I think that like, won’t understand that until the point when and if we choose to have children, right? So we can just be like, yeah, it must be nice. But for them, that must be way closer to a deal breaker, right? If you cannot have that balance, then that might be the reason you go or you don’t go for a job. Just circling back to the job ads, I was just curious.

See when you see all the requirements. How do you approach that? Do you go like, ⁓ I must fit all of them before I apply? do you go like, I fit one out of 10, give it a shot.

India Thomson (15:58)
Look, I think imposter syndrome is completely natural. Not yet starting at any company or starting any new job for the first time, you always have that. So from my own experience, I know that for me, imposter syndrome was definitely a big thing, especially coming to Hypercube and thinking, you know, am I right for this role? Am I going to be able to perform technically? Do I have the skillset they require? I think it’s just not really spoken about enough in industry and the fact that actually when approaching a role, a mentor once told me that

you should only probably fit 70 % of the role because you need to leave yourself space to grow because otherwise there’s no challenge there for you. And so you don’t want to be a hundred percent perfect at everything because then what do you have to grow into? And I think for me having that support and being allowed to be like, look, this is something I find really challenging is it, can I get some help on this? And for people to sort of be like, yeah, sure, we’ll help you with no judgment whatsoever is really important. And I think that’s how.

as a society we also encourage more people into tech regardless of who they are.

Ivona Voroneckaja (17:02)
that’s

true. Because there is that kind of stigma that if someone is in tech, they’re just like so clever and they know everything. Right? But then you are in the tech teams and like, I sure don’t know everything, right?

India Thomson (17:17)
think the biggest thing for me, as I’ve always said, you definitely don’t want to be the smartest person in the room because then you’ve got nothing left to learn. Yeah. And there’s always stuff to learn, whether it’s from a marketing perspective, a finance perspective, a new tech tool that’s come out that you haven’t worked on before. There’s always something you can learn. also realizing that everyone can learn from everyone and directors can learn from more junior people as well. And I think…

that’s something that I’ve seen just really organically happen with it, Hypercube, and I think that balance has struck quite nicely, ⁓ which is really impressive.

Ivona Voroneckaja (17:56)
Yeah. And just to touch up on the whole, you don’t need to be perfect. Like in our jump adverts, we actually do say, right? You apply even if you don’t fit like all of the criteria, we want to hear from you. Cause ultimately what is it that you’re looking for? Are you looking for somebody that knows everything that has to know about tool A that might not even be there anymore in two years, given how like fast changing and tech is like, nevermind energy.

All right, let’s not even start that. Or are you looking for somebody that has showcased that they’re able to pick things up and they’re resilient and they ask for help, they’re able to collaborate, they’re able to work things out and take something that’s not as good and make it better. So it’s really interesting to hear how, like, what a big influence on your career your mom has had. And I’ve actually read this article not that long ago and I think it was a study conducted by Microsoft.

And they have found that girls that have had like a positive female role model in science or tech, they were like over two times more likely to then be interested in a career in tech. And I think it’s quite easy to like underestimate the power of that, but you know, the numbers speak for themselves, Microsoft.

India Thomson (19:17)
Yeah, and the importance of like female role models in everything. And the fact that, you know, your female role model, well, I was pretty lucky, obviously, that it was my mom. And you were very lucky you had a teacher. Female role models can sort of come from everywhere. You know, it might be someone that you follow on LinkedIn that you look up to. It might be someone who you’ve heard of through mutual friend, as I have with you, your parents, your university lecturers. Like, it is crazy to think the impact that you can have

on other people.

Ivona Voroneckaja (19:47)
We’ve kind of reflected, right? From school to university to work lives to sort of our experiences at Hypercube. So like for you, having had this conversation, would you say it’s nature? Would you say it’s nurture? Where are you on that one?

India Thomson (20:06)
I think it’s such a difficult one to answer because I think it’s probably a combination of both, yeah. I think for me, I can categorically say without a doubt that I think if my mom hadn’t been there and had been encouraging me, I don’t think I would be in a career in tech right now. Right. I don’t know what I’d be doing, but I don’t think I’d be as happy.

Ivona Voroneckaja (20:26)
one. That’s so lovely. Your mum will really enjoy listening to this podcast I think.

India Thomson (20:34)
The other interesting thing that I’ve noticed recently is how many women are actually breaking through the glass ceiling and how many are making a name for themselves in the industry. And also seeing that, you know, even though tech predominantly in the past was quite male dominated, the same thing can be said for the energy sector. And seeing our colleague Cynthia sit on a panel at Energy Storage Summit is amazing.

Ivona Voroneckaja (20:58)
So just add on to what you said about Cynthia and even like having a look at what’s going on across hypercube, right? We have so many females just doing really, really cool stuff. And when we think about tech, there’s that like first thing that comes to everybody’s mind, right? So it’s like somebody on their computer like coding away, but there’s so many more aspects of what goes into that kind of product being delivered. there are…

Things like helping your client actually streamline and understand what the pain points are, what the risks associated with it are, like help them come up with a strategy and some sort of plan going ahead, which is something we do with our workshops or business, you know. So there’s like so many females absolutely crushing that. You know, our marketing director, sales director will being females as well. Like if it wasn’t for them, we wouldn’t have like what the products actually do.

India Thomson (21:55)
You will be sat right here, Jews. I’m on course right now.

Ivona Voroneckaja (21:58)
Yeah,

if they weren’t there kind of championing what is it that we do explaining it’s in fourth and et cetera, but we’d have no product to then like come up and code up. So yeah, it’s really cool to see how tech is just way more than what it says on the team. Thank you so much for this. Indeed. It’s been so nice to just sit down and have a good conversation. Like find out more about your experiences that you’ve had. ⁓

really really enjoyed it. And obviously we’re growing our tech team and hypercube. We want to get more females to apply for the roles and this is part of how we get that conversation started to understand how we can do better in that. So yeah, really appreciate it.

India Thomson (22:44)
great talking to you. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. I hope we can have more of these in the future and sort of open up that field to talk about these topics which are really important. If you’ve enjoyed listening to us or watching us today, please subscribe to our channel. If you’ve got any feedback, please leave it below and let’s continue on this conversation. Have a nice day.